I'm really happy to be here talking to you
about developers and content today.
It's funny to get an introduction like that
because I feel like I'm still figuring it out every day.
I've got good news for you which is if you market to developers you're marketing and
getting the mindshare of some of the most
interesting and intelligent people, I think, on the planet.
The bad news is developers don't like marketing
very much, so you're fighting for it every day.
I'm going to talk to you about some ideas
for battling that and making things that
they'll actually enjoy and taking as much pride
in the content that you make, as
in the code that you write, which I think
is a worthwhile goal if you're going be
communicating with people who
also write code every day.
The secret is there's no framework for this.
There's no shortcut for it.
I've written over a thousand blog posts
just around developer content, probably maybe
10,000 in my lifetime in total which is really a lot
if you think about how old I probably am.
The thing about that is I still feel like
when I write content, I'm making something new.
It's not like there's some template for this.
Sometimes you might find something that
works a hundred times, and that's great,
but likely the things that I was doing at Twilio
are already commoditized. If you're looking
for the next big advantage,
the way you're going to grab mindshare
and have people pay attention to you,
is probably something I haven't come up with yet.
I'm going to talk about the ways to think
about marketing and also give you some ideas
so that if you're stuck and wondering how to start,
they'll kind of begin the process. But if you really want to be great at marketing,
then the truth is nothing I can tell you today
is probably the next big thing.
I think at Twilio we found some things that
were new and innovative that we did before
other people so we got to have that six months
where we were the only ones. But those things everyone's doing now and I'm not working on that, so I don't know
what the next thing is. You guys are probably
the ones who are going to figure that out. But, I have a feeling some of the ideas here
will help you sort that out yourselves because you're pretty smart.
My understanding of the audience here is that
you are all working in startups that are relatively small.
You might not have someone working on marketing yet.
It might be all engineers. At least it's probably
the founding team plus or minus
three people on the team.
The first thing is marketing. Sales is getting rejected one person at a time.
They buy it or they don't.
You probably interact with them
and they tell you no or they tell you yes.
Marketing is great because it's just getting rejected at scale.
It's going to have 10,000 people
tell you no on Hacker News.
Or maybe you'll have 100,000 people
not comment on your TechCrunch launch.
Or you might have millions of people
sign up for your site and then never log in again.
You're going to get rejected at scale.
Developers are great at doing things at scale.
It's supposed to be comforting.
The thing is that you can't think about it
that way when you do it because
if you think about marketing as a big
collection of people then they're barely even human,
they're just a number in your database.
They've got a unique identifier and you're like,
"Great! That email address, I'm going to
abuse the crap out of them until they pay me."
I'm serious, that's how marketers often think.
The counter-intuitive thing is that
more than any other audience,
developers want to be treated like people
because they are people first of all. But secondly because everyone else
who markets them treats them like numbers.
This means you're dealing with
very small groups of audience.
You're not trying to write to 10,000 people.
You're probably trying to write to
two hundred people.
You're probably trying to write to
some subset of your users that could be
very, very small. Maybe for example,
you notice, "Hey, our dot net customers there's only maybe 50 of them." But, they're the ones
where in the forum if someone posts a question,
they actually get help.
John's sitting in the back. "Hey John!"
John and I met on IRC.
John was the first evangelist that I hired at Twilio.
What really set out about John is that there were a lot of dot net questions
on our IRC channel and John was helping
people with figuring out what they should do.
Lots of people were in there,
and John was actually the only really helpful one.
That's kind of remarkable if you think
about it, that there's so many people and
not everyone helps equally.
We notice that trend.
A whole slew of events
took place in which John finally became
an employee of the company through
sneaking into some trade shows and
randomly showing up in Vegas and various things. But, I don't think I would have picked dot net developers.
It was a really small audience,
but it was a really, really engaged audience.
It turned out it was also the right audience because
developers in the dot net community
think about businesses and how to
make money very early in the process.
It was a great initial market for Twilio.
The thing about John that really captured why
that was important is because he
treated these people like human beings in a chat room.
We know chat rooms are full of
not treating people like human beings, treating them like noobs and making them feel bad for not knowing
how to do something, and that didn't happen there.
That's the first thing about content
is your audience. It's easy to think,
"I'm just going to write this so that I'll be cool on Hacker News."
That's a really bad idea because you're never
going to make everyone at Hacker News happy.
Someone in here, Robert told me that
they are having a huge amount of engagement
from Closure developers for Light Table
which makes a lot of sense.
Closure's not necessarily, well,
maybe it is now, but it's not a trendy
language in the number sense of
percentage of developers who use it.
You might say, "We shouldn't focus on that." But, if that's the most engaged community you have,
then that's the one you should start with.
"Yeah, we're supposed to treat these
people like people. Great.
That's really insightful, Danielle." But, the other thing is that you're not doing it.
You're not doing marketing.
You're not actually talking to them
individually like people at all,
so you might think it's insightful,
but why aren't you doing it?
Or you might think it's not insightful.
Why aren't you doing it?
Actually it's really hard to figure out
what to do. "Okay cool, so I'm supposed to treat them like humans.I'm really lucky because they're smart. So now what?"
If you guys are note takers,
I'm going to give you a whole list of
kinds of content because I want to make sure
that you don't leave here without a list
of things you can go do.
Then I'm going to spend the rest of the talk
trying to convince you to actually do them.
Are you guys ready?
You should have an email newsletter
if you have nothing else. If you have nothing else. You probably think, "Developers hate email."
That is the one opportunity you have
to make something just for them
that no one else consumes.
No one on Hacker News can ruin your email
newsletter, so you should definitely have one.
And you should have an email drip campaign,
even if it has just one drop in the drips where it's just, "Hi, thanks for signing up."
Can you automate that, please?
Those are enough for the first year.
That's literally enough for the first year
if they're good.
You should care about the open rates. If you use SendGrid for example,
then make a little dashboard or something
so you can see the metrics for
your overall lists and some other metrics
about the campaign because that's not
going to be enough just the way it is.
If you are feeling ambitious, make a blog.
In the first year, if you had an email newsletter,
a drip email campaign and a blog,
you'd be better than 90% of developers
tools companies out there.
I could probably finish the talk right now.
You guys could to do that for a year and it would be
really, really good for your business.
So just please write this list down. Okay, you have a blog. What's going in your blog?
You could post once a month.
If it's really, really good, that's awesome.
Post once a month, post once a year, post. Just post. That's the whole problem.
Just fucking do it.
Sorry, I swear on the camera.
You are the only thing standing between
you and marketing.
It's not marketing's fault that you're not
posting on your blog.
There's a bunch of other things.
Have a contest. Think about your documentation like content.
Don't relegate it to some crappy ass wiki
that's not even part of your website.
Make it beautiful and take the time.
If you have to write custom CSS for it, fine. If you can figure out a way to hack WordPress
or a bunch of these other tools like Assistly â€” that's what we use. There's lots of things.
Your documentation is not just a secondary thing.
It's literally probably the pages that are
visited most on your website.
Have a great 'How it Works' page.
It could be just above the fold. That was our web window.
Have some simple visual diagram of
how your product works.
You're probably thinking,
"This isn't marketing, this is product."
That's the thing. A great product is great marketing.
People say that and they think of iPhones.
They think of Steve Jobs.
Everything you're making is product
and everything you're making could be marketing.
If people are looking at it and they have
a chance to reject you because they
didn't like it, then it's marketing because you're getting rejected at scale.
So think about it that way.
Here's one thing that's not marketing
by itself: Social media is not marketing.
Just because you tweet doesn't mean anything.
Why are you tweeting? What are you linking to?
The link is the marketing.
It's just a channel.
The biggest problem I sometimes see is
a company will be really active on Twitter
and then they won't have updated
their blog in three or four months.
What are they linking to?
It's not terrible, they might be linking to
other peoples' content.
Every single one
of those tweets is a missed opportunity to
link to your great content.
You're probably thinking, "Danielle, you should have listed so many
more types of marketing."
You could do events or you could do â€” there's a million things, why am I blanking â€” you could do advertising
or retargeting or all these other things. For your five person company,
that's all very, very hard and very expensive. These are all organic things you do
that don't cost you anything other than time.
So going back, I wanted to talk about
just the first three months of your plan.
Say you just digest this talk,
you've been thinking about starting to
do content and you go back to your team.
What does the first three months actually look like?
I would definitely go back to the list with
the email and just dig into what could be in there.
The newsletter, you're probably wondering
not just what to put in it, but why would
anyone read a company newsletter?
I don't know, I do this a lot,
I just kind of archive those.
If the first newsletter is full of really useful resources and links, people will save it and they'll come back to it.
We found this a lot.
We found trailing open rates of
months on that first email that we would
send out for Twilio.
There's a really great blog post. There's all these really great blog posts
by the way, if you guys search for
developer marketing from like the '90s. These are not maintained websites.
People have written about this,
especially in the Microsoft community.
I can't even remember who this is,
but there was this guy and he took an email
that he'd been sending to his community and it was really long and really dense. I was thinking, "I would hate to get this." And he
shares the stats and it's just like
terrible open rate, incredible click-through rate,
and then he shows the open rate over time
as people start forwarding it.
Basically, you could take your email and say,
"If the open rate is higher than some percentage,
then I should probably mix the page
on my website." And now you've taken it and you've repurposed it. Now it's a page on your website.
Now it's a page on your website and
you can tweet about it.
"Look! We've got this page on our website,
it's a great guide for how to get started
with our product." And you tweet about it. Then you find out
that people are starting to send it
to each other. Maybe you see it on Stack
or you see it on Hacker News, Reddit or you start seeing link backs for it.
It just takes a while and then it's like,
"I could write a blog post about it. Here's a blog post about the page,
about the email about how
to get started with our company."
You've made all this content with this
really one thing. It's just reusing these ideas.
Every time you're hopefully making it a little better.
You set post-to-post and
this amazing thing happens. What do you guys think it is?
No one reads it.
No one reads it because
blogging at the beginning
is really, really frustrating.
No one reads it.
You go on your merry way and
imagine you've found some other things
that are working.
Who here, just raising hands I know won't
show up well on camera, but who here
has a blog for their company right now?
More than half. Go back through your blog, grab all the blog posts
you wrote and just republish them.
Yeah, like every year.
This is great on two levels: One is it's just it's efficient, right?
You already wrote that content.
It was a lot of work to write it.
You might as well just make it better
and publish it again.
The second thing is something more fundamental. You have a psychological problem,
you have a major problem. It is you will never
be able to think like a noob again about your company.
You won't. You know exactly how
everything got made. You just cannot be
in their headspace of, "What am I doing?
How do I start? This is confusing."
You'll always be like, "Now it's perfect."
The cool thing is that if you republish content,
then you can battle this mistake that's
so commonly made by just republishing
the noob stuff because that's the stuff
you usually publish first.You publish the "blah, blah, API 101" post.
That was probably the first post your wrote,
maybe very early. Or maybe you wrote a post
on your culture and the kind of developer
you wanted to be and work with.
All that stuff is really good content forever.
There's somebody new signing up for, I don't know, "blah, blah, API" â€” somebody new signed up right now, and again, and again, and they're all noobs
and you might as well love them because
they can make you a lot of money and
they're developers, too.
will basically suffer from the curse of knowledge.
You know so much about your platform that
the only fun things to write about
are the complicated things.
Very respectable from an intellectual standpoint.
Very frustrating if I'm the noob.
I heard some laughter.
You should totally do that, it's really fun.
And you'll see how different it is
as you just continue to have more users.
Oh, and then you know what you can do?
You can email all your users and tell them
that you posted that post about that page
that came from that email that you
originally wrote two years ago.
Literally you could do that right now
and you'd be reusing this stuff.
It's wonderful! You're like,
"I don't even need to actually write that
many things. I just need to write the right things
and then rewrite them in different ways
enough times until they work." It's surprisingly like building software. It's very weird.
There's this other problem.
I'm going to talk a lot about
the psychological problems that are
keeping you from doing marketing.
You probably think you don't know what to do,
but you're already getting marketed to
all the time. You could just copy the things
other people do that you like and not do the
things that you don't like about their programs.
But you're really worried about being judged probably.I certainly am, every time I write a blog post.
It doesn't matter that I've publish a ton of stuff. A button is sitting there, I think it's WordPress, right now it's blue, the layout that I have. Sometimes I stare at it for 10 minutes
and I realize that you have to lower the bar.
Totally counter-intuitive, you lower the bars,
publish it, typos, conceptual mistakes
that are major that are going to get you
really embarrassed. Yeah, that's going to happen.
Get good at comments because you're
going to have to fix things. It's never
going to be perfect, just like your product. If you wait so long that you're not embarrassed
of anything, you've waited way too long.
You have to lower the bar, especially for that first post.
At Twilio, something that we did
when people joined the company that
I think is really interesting and really
just started off as me being lazy and
not knowing how to manage new employees,
but turned into something cool,
is we made people write a post where they
introduce themselves to the community.
This was totally a trick.
People would write this boring post,
it was their whole resume
and all the things they've done. I was like, "There's no fucking way
I'm publishing that ever."
I could just go to your LinkedIn.
It makes me kind of mad in a way that
people do it, but you start to realize this is
how we think. We think about ourselves first.Then we would ask them, "Turn it around.
What are you bringing to
the table for these customers?
Why should this audience even care
that you joined the company?
Write about it from their perspective.
They're the audience here and
you're trying to prove to them that
they should be happy that you're
part of Twilio now."
That was always a light bulb moment for people
where they realized it wasn't about
what they'd done and who they were,
it was really about what customers had done,
who customers were and how
we can make them more successful.
You might think that's trite,
but try to write that post.
Try to write it. It's hard.
It's hard to change your view.
As developers, and look, I was in marketing
and now I've been writing code for the
past 18 months in my own startup.
I'm going to stereotype developers â€”but this is me, I'll just tell you my experience.
It's a lot easier to write code for yourself and people just like you. You're like,
"There must be some other people like me.
I'm going to write this and I'll explain it
the way I know best and I'll try to
do a really good job, but it's going to be
for people like me."
The truth is not everyone is like you
and way fewer people are like you than you think.
I think it's very hard sometimes to
write for your audience.
Write that post.If you haven't written a blog post yet,
that's a great one to start with.Why is your company great?
What is your company going to do
that makes developers' lives better?
Try to write the resume version,
write the, "Feature, feature, feature,
feature, feature, oh and by the wayyou'll save some time." And then you'll probably
turn out that's it actually, "Hey you'll build all these
amazing things that change your life
and processes and save you time and
by the way, feature, feature, feature,
feature." It's actually totally reversed.
People always talk about writing about
customers, that's another really fun one.
If you can't write about yourself,
writing about customers is a great way
to make sure you write for your audience
because then you have to talk about
what they've done and you're ideally at
the bottom of the post.
So the first thing you'll think is â€” who's the good example right now?
Who should I pick on?
I'll pick on Box.
I really love Box.
I think that Box talks about Box too much.
They actually have all these amazing customers.
I don't know if anyone from Box is here. I think the crazy thing is that
the minute that you flip it and you talk
about time saved, like for themit's with file storage primarily and
all of the connectors there. It's kind of mind-blowing.It's like, "Shouldn't this be in TechCrunch?"
Didn't you actually change the world and
all that fluff was just like feature, feature, feature?
You guys are the TechCrunch for your customers.
You're going to write the story that
nobody else is writing about them potentially.
You can actually understand how they fit
in that entire space.
Everyone here who has read TechCrunch
is probably qualified to write a blog post
because you can just take their model,
take their paragraphs, flip it upside down
so you start with the benefits,
and then write the story.
Your company at the bottom, it's still there.
It's your blog, right?
Your header's in the upper left corner. This is really funny that my company's logo,
which has nothing to do with developers,
is up here. But it's great because now
you've all seen the Mattermark logo.
Even if only the last paragraph is about you guys,
you're still getting that brand value.
Your blog is like the cheapest banner ad in the world.
Writing about customers, talking to people like they're human, lowering the bar, everything is news, be your own TechCrunch. You didn't want me to tell you these things.
Everyone I talk to about developer marketing,
and I talk to lots of people about it â€”I don't know, I'm still trying to
figure out exactly what people are looking for â€”but, I still think there's this sense
that it's going to somehow be really easy.
The secret is that you're really
running a newsroom.
You're going to just grind. Everything else in building a company,
you ship it and it's like it's shipped
and it's great and you're like,
"I'm going to build the next thing."
Marketing is just doing the same thing
over and over again and incrementally
getting better at it every single day
for the rest of your life.
That is so foreign, I think, to building product.
Building product should be like that.
Probably startups we don't think a lot about
what our companies will be like in 20 years,
but this is kind of the core of the disconnect.
I can get the 80% part.
I can get a blog post out,
but I've got to get better and better.
If I have a contest, I have to run it
every week for 10 weeks or 20.
I have to make sure I get a blog post
out every week or more so people will
expect something from me. I have to tweet
every day for my company.
It's actually kind of weird, that thing that suddenly
it's like "manager time".
You have to time block yourself for doing that.
It's very unnatural.
I actually think there's a bit of a
mindset shift that has to happen.
It has to be okay for you to ship something
crappy, incrementally improve it,
and never ever, ever, ever stop doing it.
If you find something that works for example,
like contests, you pretty much might be
committing to contests for the rest
of the company's life.
That's kind of the difference, I guess.
You're committing to customers from product, but it doesn't scale
the way software does.
Going back to stuff you can publish, since you're probably wondering,
"Okay, Danielle, you've told me I should
take my welcome email and publish it.
You've told me I should write a blog post
about myself and then flip it around
and explain the value I'm bringing
my customers, maybe make my employees do it. You told me I should blog about customers." Of course, by blog, I also mean tweet and email
and do all the distribution stuff.
How about support tickets?
How many times have you written
the same answer to a support ticket?
You're probably thinking, "That's my FAQ."
Great, blog your FAQ.
Every single question on your FAQ is
a blog post and a tweet, and probably
five answers on Stack Overflow and
a bunch of other places, forums for
your particular language or technology of choice.
Email. Publish great internal emails
that you feel comfortable sharing with
the outside world.
Say you've launched something and it's really hard,
publish that crazy email that you wrote
your team at 3 o'clock in the morning,
maybe edit it a little, but publish it.
That's all content.
People love the process of how the sausage is getting made,
so sharing with them. I hope you guys are making lists.
Any communication that you do at scale. If someone on your team goes and
speaks at a conference that's a blog post
and a tweet and a bunch of other stuff.
You have a meet-up, hire a photographer,
like that guy, and pay him,"whatever
you got paid," and publish the pictures
on Flickr and on the blog.
Everything that you do is news for your community.
It's doesn't matter that it's not news
for the rest of the world,
it's news in your community and
your community will care about it.
Anything you do where you're communicating
or connecting with people at scale could be at more scale.
That's kind of the annoying thing, is it's the little things that you won't notice
so you have to literally take tabs on,
"What are all these different things my company's doing?"
As your company gets bigger,
you have different teams so
your teams are each producing news.
Those are some of the bare company things
I guess, but fundamentally you're probably
already doing cool things like
the first time you do a meetup and
20 people show up is just amazing.
You should definitely blog about it.
Your meetup itself is another opportunity.
When you start it, kick it off.
Really, if you start listing all these things,you could definitely have a blog post every day.
It just kind of builds like that.
I've talked a lot about the types of content. It's very prescriptive, I'm just giving you this list of stuff
and you might be wondering if these
are the right things, but you could just
toss these out. Try them, test them, if they work, awesome, if they don't, try them
one more time maybe and then throw them out.
The reason that that matters,
the reason I'm saying this, is
I can't tell you, I can show you. I've tried to show with the things I've done. But my style, and I think the style with
marketing to developers is much more
show than tell.
It's the same thing. I can't convince you
Say I want to get you to
adopt Twilio, I can't convince you.
I can get you interested.I can get you to come to the door, to the front page of Twilio, click the Docs page probably and maybe how it works, and
I can get you there. But, all I can do then
is show you that it works and how it works.
Telling you doesn't make me money.
That's the unfortunate and frustrating
part about marketing is telling is just
the top of the funnel.
Showing is your product.
On that note, if your product is broken,
marketing will not save it.
It will just frustrate you and
maybe make you fail faster which
could be really good. If you're
bringing a lot of people, if you're
marketing finally figures out a way to
connect with people, and they're still
struggling and you just feel like you're stuck,
there might be something else that's wrong. But, you could use marketing to find out
what that is because you'll hopefully be
reading the comment sections, feedback,
emails and support.
Sometimes I think people think hiring
marketing is a silver bullet. Honestly,
my success at Twilio comes down to
the company having an incredible product.
I feel very fortunate they asked me to
join them very early and ultimately
all I wanted to do was make sure that
I didn't do a huge disservice to a great
product by giving it crappy marketing.
It's still ultimately about making
the product great.
This is like a huge list of stuff to do.
OH! In the voice. If you respect
developers' intelligence, they'll respect you more.
That's a huge problem with marketing language
is it makes you feel stupid.
What's a good example?
I used to have so many.
Consumer marketing does this all the time,
it's like the "sex sells" stuff.
It totally works, but if you try that with
developer marketing, you better watch out
because Reddit will get you because
It's already offensive to your intelligence
as a consumer, but you're just programmed to
accept that in a movie or a television program â€” you're going to see ads with the standard
way of selling to you, manipulating you.
Developers are really good at knowing
when they're being manipulated.
That's a unique problem you have. You can't do
some of the typical things which is why
if you hire a marketing agency that's
only done consumer stuff, or a PR agency
that's only done consumer stuff,
there's a really good chance
it's not going to work out because
they are thinking about people as a group. They're thinking about stuff that
works on people as a group, and manipulating people as a group, like cows.And developers don't like to be cows, or cats, by the way.
I'm almost out of paper, but I feel like
there's so much more to say.
We're going to have a long Q and A session.
By the way, I'm happy to be very specific
or very high-level or whatever.
These are just the things I thought about this
morning when I wrote this for 20 minutes.
I wrote it twice,
"Don't make people feel stupid."
That's sort of the same thing as
respect their intelligence.
This is the noob thing again.
Say you have Troll come after you onHacker News in the comments and you totally want to just rip this guy a new one.I think your only answer in every single
situation is to be classier.
The developer community is full of
really bad actors in online forums
who are anonymous and you are not anonymous
when you're talking about your company.
They will find out who you are and
it will reflect badly on your company.You don't get to be a troll,
you have to be a troll slayer.
Troll slayers have to be above reproach.
That's part of the not making people feel stupid.
You don't get to do that.
I think that's way more fun from an internet chat room
culture standpoint, is just to smack down people
who say negative things about your company,
but you don't get to do it anymore.
You're basically corporate self now, just a little bit,
not like "the man" corporate, but
people are going to find out that
you represent your company.I swear things you say will
come back to bite you in SEO.
That is everything I wrote here except for, "Just fucking do it." I'm happy to talk about
in the comments specific things I've done,
specific things that have happened
that I've blogged about or totally random
things that I'm not even thinking about.
The bottom line with developer marketing
is they're people. You're trying to
convince them of an idea so you can
fill their headspace.
They've got this precious time,
they're not coding, they're listening to you,
so use it wisely. And think about
how to get rejected at scale then you'll have customers and
you'll have more of them.
Then you can recycle all your stuff
and do it again next year and then
it'll look like it's genius and it's new.
That's my talk.
Q: How do you measure success?
A: Well, if your product does make money,
then ultimately making money is definitely very important. But some of the things that you're going
to do early on are super frustrating because
they're not very measurable. I think
you should start with things you can measure
just because it's frustrating to do things like
net promoter score, which is a little more soft.
I think you should look at web traffic. I think you should look at how many times
you got mentioned on Twitter. I think you should look at whether or not
people comment at all on your launch,
on Hacker News, on threads where
your company is mentioned oryour technology is mentioned. I think you should have an IRC room
and people should broadly know it's there
and you should be monitoring the levels of
how many people hang out in there.
You can do that by the way,
you can screen and you don't necessarily
have to have a separate client.
You can be doing it on your phone.
It doesn't have to be you answering
every question, just monitor the level
of people helping each other.
Anything you can quantify really.
The thing is if you faked all those things,
if you made those things go up: If I do a TechCrunch launch tomorrow
and then I email 20 friends and I'm like,
"Hey, will you write a positive comment?"
This is totally gaming the system,
but everyone's doing that.
It actually works. People go and they see
there's an engagement here and then they
want to engage.
Part of the reason to monitor this
isn't just so you can be,
"Ha ha! I've got 20 comments!"
It's still someone else will be,
"Ha ha! They've got 20 comments!"
and they want to comment.
I actually would avoid measuring revenue
because it doesn't matter, in the very beginning stage, whether
you made five or ten thousand dollars. Unless you're
literally running out of money and
it does matter, like paying bills matter.
It's sort of confusing, with the
exception of usage-based products like APIs
that charge per unit, it doesn't necessarily
tell you a lot. You had one $5,000 customer,
now you have two, but there's always these
other people over here you're not talking to.
That's only true in the zero to six months part.Beyond that, classic marketing measurement
stuff applies, like: top of funnel, middle, money.
Q: How do you incentivize your team to produce content?
A: I think you have to make it kind of addictive.
It's very motivating to get a blog post
that has a lot of traffic and a lot of
engagement just from a human kind of "I want to be in the spotlight for
a moment" standpoint.
That doesn't work for everyone, though.
Part of it is you just have to make it
part of your culture from the beginning
and make sure people understand that
they're the best ones right now to
talk to your customers.
No one sells it like a founder.
No one sells it like a first 10 engineering team.
A lot of that comes back down to,
"I feel like I'm going to be judged.
I've never done this before," and maybe
making it safe â€” creating an environment like
that blog post, where they're heavily edited,
where they get a lot of feedback,
where everybody does it.
At Twilio everyone had to build an app when you joined, and you have to present
the app to the company.
Interestingly, it's kind of the same thing
as if you present it at a meetup. It's kind of like every one had then
done at one time. If you ask
someone to present Twilio later on,
they're like, "I've kind of done that before." If you can make it part of the internal culture,
then maybe you can make it come to the outside when you need to call on someone to help.
Also, have the developers write
the documentation themselves. Don't give it to a copy editor because
the copy editor doesn't know how to code. Generally, it's not very good.
Have them help you clean it up,
but developers should write it.
Think of, you know how Amazon does that
"write a press release first" thing for product?
You can do "write the documentation first"
for new developer tools.
You'd learn a lot that way.
Q: What's the ideal length for a blog post?
A: The shortest possible length to get
the point across is usually good
just because of attention span.
One of the challenges for developer tools companies
is that there's usually code in the post â€” a good post I think should have code in a lot of cases â€” then they do get long very quickly. I think it's not a bad idea to do the tl;dr.
A lot of places, that would be considered
not good form from a writing perspective,
like in the news. You could basically do
a little outline at the top and even
anchor link people to things for
super long posts.
It's more about the goal.
How are you going to measure that the people
that you wrote for, or say it's like a How Toor example code, how are you going to know
that that actually got done?
Are they going to fork something
in GitHub so you can see it?
Are you going to ask them to post stuff back?
How are you going to know that it worked
is probably the more important thing.
It could be super long if it's really good,
it would be wonderful.
I guess that's not helpful because
it's basically saying,
"However long it takes
to get people to do something is how long
it should be." That's probably the case.
Q: What content makes the most money?
A: Can we start with that one instead?
I'll get you the other ones, too.
The content that makes the most money is case studies.
You have to write them.
I hate writing them, I won't deny.
Of all the content, I just find them super frustrating.
However, the reason they're frustrating
is because they're so much more rigorous.
What's going to happen with a case study
is it's going to get read by someone
in a big company and they're going to use it
to decide if you're legit or not.That's the least popular,
but the most monetarily awesome.
The most popular thing is something that
gets on Hacker News so it usually has some
combination of intellectual interest
and something controversial.
So if there's something going on in
the community that you think is important,
you can calm it down in a meaningful way,
then yeah, it's going to be popular.
How will it reflect well on your brand
is a whole other question.
The best piece of content is
the piece of content that makes people
think more highly of your company than
they did before. That could be a lot of things.
I think it's more about what your strengths are.
At Twilio, I think our strength was contests.
I think these contests were really fun
and developer contests at that time,
there weren't a ton of them,
but now they're everywhere.
Same with hackathons, by the way.
Hackathons were not a thing when
we started doing hackathons.
Now hackathons are everywhere!
I would not do a hackathon right now.
Maybe I would, but I'm not doing it every day.
It's usually changing all the time.
It's usually the underappreciated thing
where you can be the best at it,
is the content that rocks.
I will say one caveat to all of this is
I would not do video content at all.
It's super, super hard to produce it,
it takes a ton of time.
Look at this incredible setup these guys have here.
This is what it takes to make really
good videos. Until you're ready to
really commit, and have a team and have the gear â€” usually it just ends up looking horrible.
Go Google my name on YouTube and
you'll see a bunch of stuff I made early on.
I look back and I'm like,
"I really wish I had control of the Twilio
accounts so I could take that down." I should probably take it down, I probably could.
Video was very hard.
I used to think I was really good at screencasting.
There are people out there who'll do it for you
and make it look really good. Everyone says,
"I need a video on the front page of my site!"
Please don't make it yourself.
Q: How do you avoid creating monotonous content?
A: Stuff does get monotonous, but that's not
an early stage problem.
The early stage problem is generally
just having it.
Here's an experiment:
Tweet the same thing twice today.
Find something that people will actually comment
or retweet, find something they engage with.
Do it at 10 o'clock in the morning and then do it at 4 o'clock in the evening and see what happens.
See if anyone tells you.
Tweet the same thing every day.
See how many days it takes before
people actually notice.
It's amazing!No one is looking at stuff at the same time.
Take all the links you tweeted for
your company over the past month and
tweet them again, seriously.
People are just busy and they're looking
at lots of things. I think it's very
hard to be monotonous.
In a way, you kind of want to be consistent
and there's that fine line,
so you're probably not there yet.
Q: Do you have any experiences with content that wasn't well received, and how did you handle it?
A: I wrote a blog post about all the VCs
that don't have any money, right before I started my company
about helping VCs make better investments.
That was definitely the worst post
from a "pissed off people" perspective.
The really good thing is that when
you make people angry, that means they're
thinking about you.
Yeah! They weren't thinking about you before,
but they have a strong opinion about you now!
You got them angry. Basically you want people... this is totally, "Hey, I can't HR violate
people who don't work for me."
You want people who either want
to sleep with you or hate you.
The middle is stupid.
The middle is wasted.
Seriously, no one remembers the middle.
The hate one is, I think, easier.I don't know. You get a lot of
people to hate you and then basically
you just engage them individually.
You talk to them and some of them
will still hate you and some won't.
In that case, I ended up having about 100
phone calls with various investors who
felt it was their job to educate meon the industry, which was awesome,
and they definitely did more than I realized.
I know way more about VC now.
I started a whole company around it
after I did that.
I mean, I'm not dead.
No one put a hit on me and I frankly think
that VCs are way scarier than developers.
I don't know, it's like you don't die,
you just turn off the internet and
go back to being a normal person â€” take a shower, take a walk and
do things for the next 12 hours
and don't look at your computer
and then go deal with it.
Q: What is too much content?
A: There's some benefit to being consistent. If you are feeling very loquacious,
and you write a bunch of posts,
you have 20 posts and you're like,
"Ah! I just want to post these all today!" You're probably going to get a pretty quick
diminishing return, you might as well just
schedule them out over time.
People like to know what to expect. If they don't expect 20 posts from you,
and then you suddenly post 20 times,
they're probably not going to
come back to your site 20 times that day.
But, if they learn that there's something
new and interesting every day,
there's a good chance they'll check your site
once a day.
Unless you really need some
massive traffic spike, I don't think
there's a huge benefit, and then you've
kind of fired all your bullets.
Everything builds on each other so that you get this incremental increase
in distribution every time.
If I read a great post from you today and
I'm looking for you tomorrow, maybe
I didn't retweet that first one because I've never heard of you before,
I just read it and I forgot. But now
I've kind of already warmed up to you
and the second one I'm like,
"Oh I really like her! Man, two posts
in a row that I really like," and I'm like,
"I gotta tweet this to everyone!"
By the third one, I'm seeing your posts
in my feed and I might even just share
them without even reading them because
I trust you now.
I trust that you make great content.
It's sort of you'd be missing out on
the opportunity to develop that with
your readers if you did that all at once.
Q: Can you discuss the value of using different channels? For example a blog post vs. an email campaign.
A: They say in marketing, in general,
it takes seven impressions to
turn a person into a customer.
Some people hang out in certain channels
a lot. Hacker News I read every day,
but I also get kind of fatigued around
certain topics in there, and I'll stop
reading certain threads.
The value of multiple channels is
you need different opportunities to
connect with the same people.
There's some overlap of people who
are going to multiple channels. If I wanted to reach a developer,
I'd probably make sure that I was on
Reddit, Hacker News, Stack, our blog,
Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn. Very quickly it adds up and I know it's not
because I know for sure that I'll get them, but
there's a chance I'll get two or three impressions.
Do you ever get that sense that
something's blowing up, like something
really popular, and you can't even totally
put your finger on why, but your friend
told you about it and you saw it on Twitter,
then you saw it on TechCrunch,
then you saw it on Hacker News. You can manufacture that by just being
in all those channels.
That's what that does, is it creates the effect of surrounding.
Another really good thing to do by the wayis to follow people on Twitter.
Every single time you follow people on Twitter,
it generates an email saying,
"Brand followed you," with your logo.
That is free advertising.
The thing is, to do it very strategically
so that people feel like you're just
everywhere, listening to everything,
sharing things they care about.
That's what channels can do. And then you seem really big because they're like,
"How can these people be everywhere?"
Retargeting is the best one.
I feel like we retargeted once and
our ads were on the front page of
the New York Times. People were like,
"You guys must be huge. You must have this huge budget to
be on the front page of the New York Times!"
I'm like, "I think I spent $500 onReTargeter.com, but thank you." That's what it does, I think.
Q: What other ways or ideas can you utilize content to reach developers that is more likely to turn into a business transaction?
A: One cool thing is that you're going to
start thinking of all the business use cases for your company and then
be tempted to go build them.
You know how when you have lots of startup ideas? You have lots of startup ideas
and you're doing this one, you're like,
"I'd better tell all these people
all these startup ideas because I need
someone to build this so I don't accidentally
go off and make this my side project
and then build it, too." You can kind of do the same thing with
your own startup.
You know better than
anyone the businesses that can get built
on the platform, so just write the recipes for them.
Usually, your recipes will be really rudimentary
and they'll be really basic.
We did a lot of stuff that was like,
"Do blah blah and 10 lines of code," or
"Write Google Voice in 50 lines of code,"
and then people take it much further.
People are really bad with platforms initially
at figuring out what they can do,
even though you've opened up something
really cool to them, it's just a little bit hard
to connect the dots. The more you can do it,
I think that's really big.
I wouldn't worry about money though directly
as much as just use cases.
I'll give you guys one example:GroupMe was built on Twilio and
I was at the hackathon where they
were building that and group messaging
seems really cool, but like all consumer things,
I was like, "This just seems like a toy."
It turns out to be an awesome business, but you don't always know. Sometimes
it's good to just power the toys and
let the hobbyists decide
what's exciting to them.
Q: What are your thoughts on having a live chat on a company's webpage?
A: I think it's great.The one hard thing is sometimes staffing it. If you're very popular,
you're going to run into a problem where
you literally can't handle the number of channels.
I think IRC is a better place to shunt
people off to.
I think chat is great for support,
so key places where people could
fall out of your funnel, it's good to have
Zopim or Olark, or one of these tools.
I do think that you want to try to get your
community helping each other as much
as possible because that's the only thing
that's going to really scale for you long term.
Figuring out the appropriate places for
chat is really crucial.
In the early days though, you want to
talk to everyone. It might be fine if
you're just starting and there's only
at any given time there would be only 5 or 10
people on your website simultaneously,
then it's probably great.I used to use that and just say "hi" to
every person. It would just pop up "hi"
and they'd think it was creepy and then
we'd have this great conversation.
If you're social like that and you can be
friendly and helpful over chat,
it's pretty awesome. But it doesn't scale.
Q: What are the best practices for getting emails?
A: I would automatically opt people in
and then I would make sure to build
good, segmented lists. Keep your lists
for your drip campaign separate from
If you're producing a lot of content,
maybe even go further and say,
"We have this really important newsletter
we want to make sure everyone reads.
It's about features versus this other
community newsletter that is separate."
Getting them, I would automatically opt them in,
at least at the beginning.
If you get a really large unsubscribe rate,
you might need to reevaluate that,
but people tend to expect to get helpful content. And if the emails are high quality,
you won't have a problem.Another thing about high quality is
people are really weird about perception
versus reality with email. If the production
quality of the email is high, people will
assume it's high quality even if it's not. Use MailChimp or something that
has nice templates and you can probably
fake it a little bit until you really
get to your groove on content.
It's really uncanny if you doan A/B test of a really basic template
versus something that's a little shinier
and same content, you'll get different everything â€” different click-throughs, different unsubscribes. Everything can be A/B tested,
even the things that don't seem like they can.
Q: How do you make sure your content is relevant to developers or your audience?
A: Other developers are also
building businesses so a lot of these things
are universal challenges. They can make good content.
I think the key is that if the person
inside your company really wants to write it,
getting someone to write something
that they don't want to write if very hard.
If someone's really passionate about
engineering culture or maybe they've come up
with a really good deployment process,
or some other internal thing that
they're really proud of,
giving them the opportunity to be platform to show that off, is going to be: 1) great for your recruiting, 2) it makes them happy and proud as an individual
and, 3) you don't really know if it'll hit.
Sometimes those posts really take off just because no one's talking about it
or it's a hard thing.I think deployment is one that's endlessly
difficult for different organizations,
all new tech coming out for that all the time.
People love talking about how the sausage
is made, so yeah, I would let them write.
The only thing is if it gives away secrets
which you guys should ask me about. I'm just going to ask myself a question.
Q: What don't you publish?
A: You should be really careful to decide
where the line is of what you don't talk about.
At Twilio, one thing that Twilio does not
talk about is the stack.
Occasionally, they'll pull back the curtain
and explain certain parts of how Twilio
is built, but generally, they're pretty
closed about that and there's a lot of
very strategic and important reasons
over the long term.
One of the challenges is everybody inside
the engineering team knows exactly
how everything is being built.
You have to make sure you have a clear
conversation internally about what you do
and don't want to share.
If you're really building IP that is
groundbreaking in some way,
you probably do have the defensible things
you want to not be publishing about broadly.
You should assume your competitors are
reading everything you're publishing.
Q: How candid should we be with our opinions? How can it affect the company?
A: His question is should he voice his opinion
that something is stupid or be really
blunt or brutal about things?
It's hard because it's nice to be able to
just be free with your speech.
It's the wonderful thing about the internet.
But yeah, it can do damage to your company.
Especially if you're bad at arguing. If you tend to use ad hominem attacks, or argue from intimidation, or
use a lot of the lower levels of argument,
you're just going to get ripped apart
by smart people. Don't even do it.
However, if you think something is actually
really bad â€” bad for the ecosystem,
unethical, terribe, like maybe the NSA â€” then I think you can write about it.
I think you can put your name on legislature
and you can go for it. But you have to
realize that you will be remembered forever as being against that thing. Just like
how our government officials are remembered
for their record, you're going to have to
be able to stand behind it.
Just make sure it's worth the mental energy.
There's definitely things worth taking
a stand on, but you're going to have to
basically be the guy who takes a stand
on that for a very long time.
For example, emacs vs. vim and
being an asshole about that,
probably not worth it at all. At all.
Or even just general religious words
in development are usually avoidable things.
Q: What voice should I write in?
A: I would just write in a personal voice always.
The company voice becomes an amalgamation
of personal voices.
The company voice is sort of saved for
very special things like announcing
new product or new features.Even when Steve Jobs gets up on stage
and he's like the famous announcer,
he still speaks in his voice.
It just happens to become Apple's voice.
But it's a human voice because humans like
to be talked to by humans.
The only exception would be when
bad things happen and you don't have
the personal voice to be authoritative enough. For example, your site's down or you lose people a lot of money, security breach, those things,
you almost need to use the company voice
because it needs to be very, very clear.
Those should be exceptions cases.
Crisis communications is an interesting question
because you do produce content around that.
You're downtime page is a crisis
communication tool, your blog,
other channels become distribution for that, that might be an exception to what I just said
in terms of the voice.
It kind of depends on whether or not the CEO,
for example, has had a voice in the community
and is respected.
If they're kind of behind the scenes, which is very common frankly â€”they're building product, they're coding,
they're not really putting their voice out. Them stepping forward can have two outcomes:either they're really good at it and it
reflects well on the company or
they're very uncomfortable and it would
be better to use the company voice.
That's a choice you have to make.
If you have more questions about crisis
communication, I'd be happy to dig into that.
It's certainly something you'll face
sooner or later.
Q: What's the best way to use contests?
A: Contests are interesting because
if you're not specific about what you want
people to do, they just don't know what to do.
You have a platform company and you say,
"Whoever builds the coolest app,
we are going to give you..." (we gave away
netbooks, that tells you some sense of
how long ago that was) "We're going to give you ... some kind of, like a Pebble Watch or something." The problem is with contests two things: one, you never get all the entries until
the night before, so it's super stressful
the whole time you're running it.
With the ones that are broad,
the entries are usually bad.
You want to have things that are themed,
and then the prize should connect to that. Like: let's do a contest about wearable devices
and health, then have the prize be a watch. Or: let's do a contest about pets, could be a category
and then the prize is a donation to the SPCA.
Getting really specific is really good.
The other thing is you can seed it. If you know someone built something cool
that is deserving of a prize, then
basically go ask for competition
with their thing. Use them as the example.
If no one comes along, you can give them the prize.
That way you have a winner.
The worst thing is to have a contest
with no winner, that's really embarrassing.
I think that we merely avoided that sometimes
and you always make things look as good
as you can to the outside world.
You're trying to always make your community
look super vibrant and sometimes you just
hit on the wrong thing and it just doesn't work.
You kind of have to be prospecting for winners
and being like, "Hey, you should totally
enter our contest!" It's not just like,
"Here's the contest. See you in a week."
That's a big thing.
Trends work really well.
To write good content, you need to read a lot. I'd be reading and whatever things
developers are talking about a lot are usually
the ones to hook into.
I think it would have been really funny to
do a Soylent contest recently.
I don't even know how that would work,
but it would be hilarious because
it's taking up so much mindshare.
Figuring out how to hook into trendy things
is generally the way to go.
Q: Was there an internal revision process? Do you rely on an editor?
A: I was a terrible editor.
You get really busy.
It's better if you can trust someone to
just write their piece and edit themselves
end to end. Obviously it's nice to get feedback,
but the reality of a startup is it's really small.
I think it's nice to build an editorial group
of friends outside of your company who
can edit you. And it's also fun for them to be able to
see stuff early as you grow as a writer.
I think it's very hard to farm out topics
to other people, I think they need to write
about something they actually care about.
Generally, they like to write about things
they pick for themselves. You have to
convince them that they pick them for
themselves or you have to let them pick them.
Eventually build a content team and
they'll do it all and that'll be awesome. In the meantime, it's probably just you
for the first year or so â€” you and maybe a couple of people on your team who just
decide to do it together.
Q: Can you force people to write content?
A: You can't force people to write content. That's like the hardest thing.
You can't force people to write code, you can't really force people to do things in general
in startups. Yeah, it doesn't work at all.
You have to show the payoff.
It has to be fun somehow.
It has to make them feel good about
themselves, reflect well on them.
As we built the evangelism team,
I feel like we kind of became more like
a talent agency and we had these amazing
people and they chose to work for us
and they already brought a lot of their
"interestingness" to the table.
You're just trying to make sure you've
given them a stage to stand on that's
actually worth it.
That's pretty hard, I think.
You can't force them, for sure, and
I think you want to basically pay attention
to what they do that works and then try
to get them to do more of the thing that works.
Q: What do you look for in a good content or marketing person?
A: Great command of the English language
is still so hard to find.
I feel like I read so many applications
that were so bad â€” and by the way,
I dropped out of college â€” so when I saw people
graduating from great schools with horrible
essays that didn't make any sense. That's number on. Using English.
It doesn't even have to be proper.
It's not like I want people to write
business English, I just want them to write
English that makes sense.
That sounds so silly, but that's 80%.
I guess for developer content,
they should probably write decent code, too, right?
You don't want them to go out and publish
code samples and embarrass you,now that part is quite high. Decent code that you can understand,
decent content. John, I'm like totally
complimenting you here to make up for before.
An opinion. Another huge problem is that
I think the people who are most successful
in building a voice and a following have
their own world view on how things should be done.
It's not just towing the party line,
there's an aspect of being confrontational
and getting out there.
John could talk about this a lot more,
but he was promoting REST in the
dot net community, which I think was
a little bit different. I think there's
an aspect if you're looking for people
who don't fit exactly, they're like the
tall poppy in some community.
Then I'm sure all the other stuff is
just getting it done.
What do you think?
Commentor (John Sheehan of Runscope): The other two things are
the ability to create a narrative even
when there isn't one.
tell you interesting things about their companies.
You sometimes have to create the problem
for them so you can turn it into a story
that's more interesting than just
the problem they solve.
And then empathy, understanding what
you're writing about, what it meant to
the person that you're writing about so
that they're willing to go brag about it
to their other friends because it feels
like they wrote it when you wrote it.
Danielle: What he said.
Q: What resources or blogs do you use for inspiration?
A: I wish I could tell you that I did that.
I tend to read books for that from
a writing perspective. I read tons of blogs, but for inspiration,
you need storytellers and I just feel that
it's very hard to find that online.
I also write very long form, for anyone
who reads me, I write 1,000 plus words
pieces generally now.
For you though, for what you're doing,
I think what's important is to read
the people your community
trusts and respects.
That's going to change over time.
It's usually a combination of developers,
designers, marketers that don't sound like
bullshitters, it's a company-building people.
I think it's very actually hard.
When I get in a writing rut, this is really silly,
I don't even know if it's worth saying,
I always read Jane Austin when I can't write
because I find that she is able to
make a story out of nothing, like John said.
She takes all this dialogue, it's an amazing skill,
she's like the best gossiper ever, but she creates this incredible tension
around these very simple things
that are happening. It's kind of like
when people tell you what their startup does
and sort of seems boring and there's
no story. And she makes the story.
She commands dialogue. I hear
dialogue in my head as I'm writing.
If you find something like that,
it's less about the subject matter and
much more about how it makes you think differently.
That's the best one I've found.
I think sometimes the really good writing
out there is still the best stuff for
becoming a good writer, not blogs.
Q: Is it better to have a main source for all of your content or use different channels for different kinds of content?
A: First, I think you should have a main source
because it's more efficient to have one place that you're going to work
the hardest to curate of all the places. And that's the place that at the end of the day if you have to shut down all the others,
or if you land one person, that place
would always be really good.
I think that place should be on
your website with your brand,
your complete ownership and control of it. It's very, very, very important.
Blogs generally do that for most companies
early on and then eventually,
the broader website is actually the place.
By the way, no one asked me
who owns the website and you probably all think the developers do.
This is kind of to your question.
Your website is your marketing.
Your product is, for developer tools,
usually not the website itself.
It's usually something else.
It's a service.
It might have a portal where you log in
and you check how much you're paying
or how much you've used or
where you get help.
The website is entirely a marketing vehicle. At the beginning, it'll feel like
everybody owns the website and there won't
be a big difference.
To the extent that you don't own your website,
you will be hindered by your ability to
build that place that everyone comes for content.
That's your legacy, that's like your library
of Alexandria for your company where all
the knowledge is ultimately going to go back to.
Twitter's just a channel. GitHub's just a channel.
GitHub might be more than that because you might
have actually great code there.
At the end of the day, if GitHub was gone,
you'd put the code on your site.
If Twitter was gone, you'd use another channel.
All these things will just pass and
there'll be new things.
Your website could potentially be there
like a physical space almost
for a really long time.
Q: How do you strategically place yourself to communicate with developers?
A: I think that what I said about surrounding
people so that they can find you in
the channels they like is pretty important.
They shouldn't feel forced to come to your site,
they should just feel like they encounter
you in the places where they already are.
I think another thing I was chatting with
someone earlier tonight is post things in places where you can help people.
On Hacker News, one of the problems is
I go to Hacker News to goof off.
I don't go there to answer questions or
solve problems. But I go to Stack to
fix something that's not working in my code
or to discover new tech or answer some
specific question. Orcora, too, is like this.
Those places are a lot of work,
a lot more work than Hacker News because
you're just posting a link and then (PWOOM!)
That's another huge piece of it is
making sure that when people come there,
that their intention is somehow connected
to what you're delivering. Otherwise,
the quality of the people that come through
that channel is just very low.
Does that help?
Q: Do you have any case-studies of companies that have a good developer marketing strategy?
A: I think the ones that you can name are
the ones that you're remembering because
they're everywhere: GitHub, Box, Dropbox
but also because they have consumer products
so that helps them a lot. By the way having consumer products is not
a terrible idea for getting developers,
even if it's free.
Tengine does a really good job.
Urban Airship does a good job.
Sorry, they don't roll off the tongue
like they used to. Those are some of the ones, you
named GitHub, obviously I think Twilio
does a good job.
I often think about that more, but
the truth is that it sort of only matters
when you need it.
That's why I don't think of them,
and then I'm thinking of toolsI'm using. I'm using Mamp right now, and I'm using Coda. How did I find those things?
How did I pick Coda out of all the possible options?
It's sort of more about they're good when
I needed them and now they just kind of
fade into the background of my toolkit
and they're just part of my life now.
I'm probably more active with those tools
than almost anything else that I use,
but I don't even think about it anymore. They're just part of my life.
I logged into Twilio today and bought
some phone numbers, actually, for
a new employee. But, I only login to Twilio
only once a month or so because it just works.
I do all my meetings with their conference
line and stuff that I've got set up.
One thing is if you are trying to figure out
good comparisons for yourself,
go try to find how to do what you do.
If your company is like a rapid deployment
environment, go imagine that you were going
and you're trying to pick one.
Go do all the things you think people
would do to find you and go see who
pops up before you.
Who comes up first in search?
Who's got better reviews?
That's what I would do if I was going to go try
and answer your question better than I just did.
I would find out what you do and then
I'd go figure out how people would find you.