April 12, 2016
Ep. #6, How To Train Your Developer
David and Steve are joined by Gonçalo Borrêga of Outsystems to discuss training developers.
Before I get started with talking about demand gen, I thought that we can talk very briefly about where marketing even fits in. Because you guys are all technology people; do you even need marketing? And how do they interact?
Very briefly, everything of course starts with the technology. Technology becomes product. Product marketing should be amplifying what people know about your product. And then ultimately, we all want to make money at some point, and that's where sales comes in.
There are a lot of things under marketing. When I've talked to a few different people at Heavybit, we've even gone back before demand gen and said, "What is in demand gen?"
Let me actually talk about what's in marketing. All the things that could end up being from your initial marketing person, or eventually a team, include your go-to-market approach, and that could include whether you're going through a developer-only, freemium approach, or whether you are eventually going enterprise. Those are both go-to-market.
Branding: How much do people know about you? Product marketing is probably what most people are familiar with because that will include things like data sheets. That also would be market sizing, that is somewhat product marketing, somewhat go-to-market, and then demand gen, which is what we'll talk about in a bit.
MarCom ends up being, a lot of times, a person who bridges a gap between anything that's communication, but also may be doing demand gen. These are all terms that, frankly, a marketer's going to come in and ask where they sit in there. PR and AR is Public Relations and Analyst Relations. I can talk way too long about those, so I'm not going to talk about either right now. Social media ultimately is going to feed into the demand gen, the brand, could be support. Those all will be in the marketing umbrella.
Before we get started, there are a ton of definitions, a ton of terms, that people throw around. What are the differences between those? Lead generation is acquiring prospects, so it doesn't even necessarily mean that you know who that person is.
Growth hacking is a term that I will be on the record of saying I hate because growth hacking is really digital marketing. A lot of times, people who don't have as much experience tend to be growth hackers, so they only know one side-load approach, and tend to not be able to create a full marketing program.
A CTA, a call to action, is something that I'll mention. A call to action is how you engage. A lot of times, if you have something on your website that is, "Contact us, trial, download," all those things are very important, and you need to balance how many you have of those compared to what the experience is on the website.
The reason they're so important is because you're spending a lot of time getting people to your website, but they're all unknown, particularly, frankly, if they're developers. They may even be blocking so that you're not able to really track who they are by cookie-ing them, so you want something that requires them to give, it may just be their email address, maybe their name and email address, and eventually name, email address and phone number. All those things that my friends in sales want more and more of.
I would say that if you're thinking about doing a form or when you do a form, it is better to do something that's progressive.
Which means that you're not asking for everything in the world to begin with, because otherwise you have people who start a form or they click open a form, and then they say, "I'm not telling them all these things about me."
But if you say, "Oh, can I have your email address?" Next time they come back, and it's like, "Oh, I already have your email address. Can I have your name, please?" It may start with three things, and then you ask for another one or two the next time.
Marketing automation: You hear a lot about marketing automation and why that's important, and the reason it's important is it's the technology that you're using to be able to have nurture campaigns and, particularly, drip campaigns.
The significance of a nurture campaign is that you're acquiring information about who that person is, but you can't have them download a white paper and think that that's a good lead. Or if you do think that's a good lead, you're probably going to either too many people to contact, or you're going to annoy a lot of people along the way.
A nurture campaign is what you do to continue to engage with someone, and it may be that it takes certain number of pieces where they are engaging back with you for you to then reach out to them. Demand generation is what all of these fall under. Those are the topics, a broad amount of topics when it comes to demand generation.
Inbound marketing tactics and outbound marketing tactics: Inbound would be anything that's pulling them to your website, to your landing pages. Things like Google AdWords. A lot of people will start with Google AdWords. I would say that if you're doing any type of campaign, you want to not only do A/B testing, but you want to do multiple types of themes so that you may have a certain level that's bringing in the person you want.
If you go too broad, you may end up having a lot of traffic to your website, but are they the right people? And are they converting to be eventual sales?
The other thing I would say is, and I'll come back to this again, is measure everything that you're doing. The other thing would be SEO. SEO is search engine optimization. People know it as, "Oh, I'm putting buzz words on my website." It's a little bit of that, but you're also looking at what are the terms that are pulling the right people to your website and then how you leverage that throughout your website. That's one part of it.
There's a lot in the back end. That's a whole different talk, but it's something to look into because, how fast your pages are loading, how well tagged they are, all those things will increase where you are when it comes to a search engine. It will increase the amount of traffic that you're getting.
Even though, officially, banner ads would fall under Google AdWords. I mention them separately because it's almost like there are Google AdWords, and then there's everything else. Google AdWords, obviously, through using Google. The banner ads and sponsored content could be on LinkedIn, could be on Spiceworks, DZone, The New Stack. All those places have different types of demand gen programs, and you really need to figure out what's right for you.
Something that may work for one company definitely will not work for another. As you're doing all that measurement and figuring out what works for you, that's whereyou're making notes so that you can continue to refine it.
Retargeting is often what somebody does first, and I would argue is not that much value if you're not a consumer site.
You'll get a lot of traffic. I'd love to hear people who have it otherwise, but I haven't seen a lot of experience of people who have a particularly a developer tool, but even a B2B tool, where somebody has left the website when they were in a buying process, and came back and actually finished the process. They'll come back. So from a branding perspective, it's great. But from an actual conversion-to-purchase, I haven't seen that.
I will also say that I haven't done in-depth research. I'm really happy to hear somebody who has had people convert on that. You just need to think about why you're doing it. If you're doing it for your brand, it is great. One of the things to do is to make sure that people from your company aren't getting those same things sent back to them.
In other words, I don't think I really need to see Iron.io things when I'm on Macy's website, you know? I will tell you, every time I see it, I cringe. Because I don't want my dollars spent to tell me to go back to our website.
Think about how you're going to use it and if it's, "I want to get my name out everywhere. I want to get the company name out everywhere." Then it works, but if you're going to do it, test it. It's one of those things that's "said it and forget it," and people end up spending a lot of money that is not converting for them.
Inbound: I mentioned call to action before. Call to action on your website is where you'd usually see that, or it's combined with Google AdWords coming to a landing page, and then it's the "Download this piece of content, watch this video, register to attend a webinar." All those things are call to actions, and they're definitely inbound.
Nurture and drip ends up also being inbound, if you have your own database. At Iron.io we have roughly 60,000 people in the database. So I can tell you that not all those people are marketing qualified. Anyone who was doing nurture campaigns and drip campaigns, when they click on something and then come to a landing page and register, that's how that ends up being a inbound program.
Switching to outbound. The one thing that a lot of people think of as being outbound is cold calling, and it is, but it's not the only outbound. There's a lot of other things that are outbound. Think of outbound as your marketing, but you're not sending them specifically to your website. You're marketing, you're doing sales outreach, but it's not specifically on domain.
I strongly suggest that, when you're doing cold calling, you have named accounts.
What I mean by that is, think about what your persona is. Who is your ideal customer?Ideally, it's vertical, it's the size of the company, it's a specific person. Then you get those leads, and so what matches up?
I'm doing financial services, and I want large financial services, so I'm thinking that it's Dutch Telecom. It's Wells Fargo. It's U.S. Bank. It's Bank of America. There are millions, but you can come up with, "Okay, here's the 20 that we're going to go after, and then we're going to pull all the names for that." So then all the names for that that are relevant could end up making that 20, could make that 110 people.
That's the starting place for the outbound calling, as opposed to, "Let's go to LinkedIn and scrape LinkedIn for everyone who's an architect or everyone who's a developer." That's so broad.
You want your dollars spent and your efforts as tight as can be. Because otherwise, if it's too broad, you're not only wasting time and money, but it's very hard to figure out what's working.
I would argue that companies that say, "We have a broad adoption. Anyone will use us," tend to be those that just haven't sold enough or spent enough time figuring out who exactly their best purchaser is.
Content marketing is your materials elsewhere. I had mentioned DZone before, DZone and The New Stack. They could take your content and put it elsewhere, not necessarily that it's even coming back to you, but they're seeing it elsewhere. Even your byline articles, an article that you write that's in a contributed article, is content marketing where that could actually come back to you is as a pay per lead program.
A pay-per-lead program would be, "I put content on TechTarget. They then send me a list of everyone who has downloaded it. So it's not inbound, because it hasn't come directly to me. They're capturing everything from the community that's already registered for them, and there are a lot of programs like that.
Sometimes they're email newsletters that have a bunch of white papers. I'll come back to the nurture campaigns, and nurture campaigns could even be that you're probably all receiving emails and calls from people saying that they have a great list for XYZ. You know, "Oh, we have this great list of developers who use Linux," and so they're selling you a list.
Some are better than others, but you don't want to have that list be your cold calling list. You would want to do a nurturing campaign or several nurturing campaigns to get them to qualify to be of interest.
Ultimately, you need to figure out your demand gen program as what your needs are and who you are targeting. And then balance that.
It's unlikely that it's all inbound. It's unlikely that it's all outbound. You need to figure out what works best for you, and that's going to take trial and error and tons of measurement.
I had already mentioned nurture campaigns. You can tell it's really important to me. The important thing with nurture also is that it's feeding into itself. Ultimately, it's targeting. It's email, and then getting the people to come back to you, to come back, as in engaging them. Measure what's working, do the outbound, and then based on that, refine your targeting.
I'm going to take a step back, since I've just given you all a lot of "Here's all the tactics." Let me walk you through an example of what a demand gen, or even lead gen, a lead gen acquisition from the beginning to sales, could look like and what that ultimately would mean for a company.
Raw leads come in. These are prospects. We don't know who they are. We do a certain amount of marketing to them, some nurture campaigns, so that we find out who they are. They become qualified, marketing qualified, and what I mean by that is they've shown a certain amount of engagement.
We now know that they're a likely candidate. The way I look at a marketing-qualified lead, I call it an "eyeball qualification." On paper they look good, looks like the right person, looks like a great company, looks like the right everything, looks like they have interest. But ultimately, they're marketing qualified.
They're eyeball qualified because no one has talked to them, and that's where an SDR comes in. The SDR is outreaching to them, and they are qualifying to the point of whatever criteria you've sent. I will say one of the things that we've implemented at Iron.io is in part because I don't like arguing is that we split the BANT.
Instead of some arbitrary, "Oh, this is what it takes to be a marketing qualified lead," We split the band, which means that if somebody is the right person, and they've established that there is a need that we are selling to, that is a sales qualified lead.
Then what happens is, on the next side, the account executive then will qualify it the rest of the way. Is there a timeline and access to budget? And then it can become an opportunity.
We've also implemented that, between the two that the SDRs, they will schedule a call, but it only becomes a sales accepted lead when that AE accepts that call. I will say that 99% of the time, because they're aligned, that would happen, but there could be a time where the SDR schedules a call, and the AE says, "Well, this was really a support call.This shouldn't count."
The significance for the SDRs is that they have a quota of SALs, so it all works in the process. This is just one way of doing it, but this is the way that we do it. And then ultimately, we close, and we win.
Although we do it this way at Iron, this is actually a slide from a previous company I was with, and here are the metrics that we came up with afterwards. Before I came, in 2012, they only had raw leads, and they weren't measuring it. They didn't have MQLs.
They had raw leads, and then AEs would reach out. So it was, "Raw leads, try to set up an appointment, try to set up an appointment," and that was it. Because we did a lot of inbound and a lot of overall marketing work, we had, as you can see, in a short period of time, a heck of a lot of adds to the database.
But the important thing isn't that number. The important thing is that qualified number, those marketing qualified leads. To give you an idea, the conversion rate on that was about 10%. So we're looking at a significant amount of calls set up with AEs, because we qualified in between.
Sometimes people get nervous about doing the qualification, thinking that they're going to strangle what the AEs have access to. And I will offer up my counterpart here, to tell you that he doesn't want his people talking to anyone who's not qualified. If you do it, it takes a few months. But once you get it down right, it's not worth their time, and they end up actually losing business if they have too many conversations that are educational and not sales based.
Who are you targeting? I can't tell you who to target. I can tell you what you need to figure out for yourself who you're targeting. Your priorities are going to change over time.
If your priority is to get mind share, but not sales right away, then who you're targeting may be an influencer.
An example of that would be you work with developers, and you want broad adoption from the development community. You don't necessarily expect the developers to be the ones who are purchasing, but you need to get that groundswell. So that's who you're targeting.
Even though everyone thinks in the beginning, "We can be used by anyone," even if you can be used by anyone, think about which ones make the most sense.
Who are the ones who have, not only the pain, but the urgency to use you. And those are not always the same thing. You can make somebody's life easier, but the reality is that if you make somebody's life easier but they have to pay for it for a certain amount, and they have to get an approval, and they're going to have to rearchitect something, that "making the life easier" may ultimately not be appropriate.
You need to just figure out all those things first, and ultimately you're going to build personas, and the personas are going to be not only who the user is, and who that influencer is, but who that buyer is.
The three personas I would say to make are: Who's a purchaser? Who's the one driving the purchase, and who is ultimately the person signing off? What that could mean is the person driving it could be a developer. The person who is the purchaser, though, may be the architect. And the person signing off on it could be the VP of engineering. Those are three distinct people. They don't all want to hear things the same way, or care about the same things.
Taking a step back, I've talked about demand gen a lot, but I keep saying how you're going to make them convert. What are you going to use to get them to convert? Asset creation is often overwhelming, and I have a slide as an illustration of how you can get multiple pieces out of one idea.
Instead of thinking, "Okay, we have to write a white paper. Okay, we can use that for a month. I'm going to have to write another white paper, and I'm really busy. It's going to take me a month and a half to write that. The reality is that you can create several pieces from one idea.
We have a white paper on what serverless is and how does it fit in the enterprise. Then we have a getting started guide. I can tell you, we have multiple getting started guides for each of our partners. "Getting started with blah, blah, blah." Then you have best practices for implementing serverless. Then you have blogs that are related to all of the above. Then you have an infographic that shows how those things are implemented in an enterprise. Then you have a briefing document that may be a one-pager that is just high-level.
People think of a data sheet, but it could easily be something that is related to a partner or related to best practices, or the five checklists. Anything you can think of that is five of the best practices, or avoiding challenges, those tend to be the ones that will resonate more.
Case studies are great when you can actually get somebody to say okay to them, but use cases are totally acceptable as well.
The thing to think about with a case study, when somebody says that they won't do a case study because they don't want their name out, is to never take that as the "no."
There are more questions that follow: "We can't talk about it publicly. Can we talk about it with an analyst? Would you be willing to talk to an analyst but not have it be public? Would you be willing to talk to a prospect? Can we write it up?"
You don't have to ask them if you can write it up and use it internally so that your team is learning the best use cases for your product. So there's multiple options instead of just taking a, "No, you can't put our name out," or, "No, we won't do any media." There's always options.
This is an example from Iron that we had a discussion on. We talked about the differences between the "How much time you should spend being broad," and "How much time you should spend targeting." The best program has both.
I'm aligning my campaign with the persona, and then I'm using those use cases and focused on pain points to get more people who are not only people being acquired, but are they likely buyers? If we go back to content, that is the "Best practices for how to implement XYZ." They tend to be things that are more actionable.
The first thing I started with is a white paper on what is serverless, and that's great for people who are getting educated. But there needs to be those next pieces where you're taking people on that journey. To tie it to all around, if we had a nurture campaign, they may have started with that piece that was the serverless white paper, and then the drip campaign ends up offering them those other pieces.
I'll mention that one of the things we've done now is, when we have somebody come in and ask about a general topic, we have a pulldown on our forms now that say, "Are you interested in...?" There are three things, and one of them is, if you click on "learning about" as part of that form, no one will come out to you.
What they'll do is you'll be automated to send to a webinar. "Register for this webinar on these topics." And so we have built into our system now a weekly webinar that's educational so that we're taking those people out of the selling cycle and giving them an opportunity first to have a live webinar with an SE and learn about a topic without having our sales team engage with them.
The people who are attending it are interested in getting the education from the expert, and at the same time, they're not being asked questions that they're not ready for yet, and our sales team aren't spending time talking to people who clearly, want to learn what microservices are, and not, "When am I going to buy?"
Those are the first two, and then again, we're using digital and content marketing to bring people back to the website and marrying that with outbound calling. So everything's actionable, and everything is based on trying to get the highest qualified people into the sales process instead of bring your AEs in too early into the process.
This is kind of my begging my theme: Measure everything. I've given examples of how to do it, but I'm happy to talk until I'm blue in the face. I'm fairly detailed of how we measure, and that is the presentation, except that I wanted to give you a checklist as a "getting started."
First of all, if you were paying attention, you already know that all of these are going to create personas. Who's the purchase driver, who's the influencer, and who's approving the purchase? And then think about how you're communicating to each of those.
I can tell you, the person who is approving the purchase does not want to get the same amount of marketing from you as the person who is the influencer, and they shouldn't have the same thing. Think about not only what pain you're addressing, but what is the urgency, because those will be two different things. Or they could not be.
They often are two different things, and lastly, think about what assets you need and the broad categories are engaging prospects, converting prospects into a known lead, moving them through each stage in the sales and the sales buying cycle.
That means that the person who's coming in through demand gen also will need something after their call with the AE, or it may even be that the AE needs a calculator or some type of sales tool. Then they may need that piece, because if they were the influencer, they then may need a different piece to be able to do a qualification internally.
Put yourself into the buyer's mind. What is the process they're going to have internally? How can you support them through that process? Think of it as, "We're in this together. You want to purchase my product. I want to sell it to you. What do I need to give you? What do you need from both sides?"
And then, post-sales, although this isn't demand gen anymore, but think of it as what's going to be needed for implementation, for support and expansion, and that's where it starts rolling back into demand gen and sales working together to, "How do we not only get that initial piece done but get it implemented so that they're a happy customer, and then expand from there?" Ask me anything.
There are multiple ways of doing that, and multiple theories. I'll give you two different theories, one of which is that you start with what kind of revenue that you're looking to bring in, and then you do a percentage from there: X amount of marketing dollars equals X amount of revenue. That's one version.
I'll give you three versions. There's also something called a magic number. There's different formulas, but one common formula is: the marketing and sales spend, times four, divided by revenue. And the significance of that number, and this is something that VCs will look at, is that it's how well you're managing your marketing and sales dollars.
One seems to be a good amount, but really a lot of times, if a company's in growth like .8 to 1, it makes sense. There are companies that are in hyper growth mode, and when you're asking how you put together a budget, there is a theory or a philosophy in SaaS that you spend like crazy on marketing.
There is a company that went public recently, that I know for years they were operating at .2, but their investors were okay with that, because they knew that. If you're above one, that's good. That actually shows that you have done a poor job of managing your growth. If you are at three or four, so in other words, for every dollar you spend, you are saving three dollars, that's actually not a good thing for a growing company. That shows that you've been overly obsessed with the money and not looking at your growth, and it's something that investors will not be interested in.
I know that's way more than you were thinking about when you asked that question. The other part of it to look at is, frankly, you have to look at your burn also. For everything I just said, you can't spend more than you have to spend, so I would look at not even where you're spending your marketing, how much you're spending. I would look first about where you're spending it.
If I only have $100, am I spending it on events? Am I spending it on purchasing, marketing automation? Where are you spending the dollars? Figure that out first, and then start building it from there.
I will tell you, I used to think that. Now I would tell you it depends on the conference. So we all have our own philosophy. My philosophy is I don't like large conference. And I don't like large conferences, particularly with large conference/small booth, because a booth is something that you can avoid. I would rather send five salespeople, spend the same amount of money, and send executives and salespeople and have them be free range and have them have targets who they're talking to ahead of time, than to do that.
At the same time, there are some events that have been extremely successful if it's an event where somebody's there trying to get information because they want education to purchase, those are fantastic.
Know who's there ahead of time.
I mean, you wouldn't do an event without that. But then also think about what stage you're in. Having said that, if I wanted to just get my name out, I would look at it differently. In fact, I'll give you an example from last year, because we're not doing it again this year.
Last year we sponsored at New Relic. We didn't do a booth. New Relic has the same demographic of users/buyers that we do, so even though we don't have an integration with them, or we don't have a lot of connection with them, they're a partner. And they again have the same people.
I spent around what I would have spent on a booth, and I did water bottles, branded water bottles, that were in the swag. Especially with us starting out with really kicking up marketing, having thousands of people walk around with an Iron water bottle, my hope was that, "Oh, who are they?"
Then it happened that things started kicking in for us more, but that was a decision. That was a decision where I wouldn't have purchased the booth. I know that the booth wouldn't have been great. I normally wouldn't have purchased the booth without the speaking spot, but I realize our speaking spot wouldn't be able to talk about us and New Relic together, so that would make sense for us being there, but it was worth it to do that.
In fact, one of our AEs came from New Relic, and he had the water bottle like, "How did you get in the middle of all our swag?"
We have massively customized Salesforce. What we do is, Salesforce has a field that is lead source, and if you really list that out, you're going to have this massive list. So we've added lead source details. My lead source is trade show. My lead source detail is really bad. It's "Show FY16Q2," and you know, if it's in a multiple: "Show FY16 Dallas and FY16Q2."
Not only do we have that, but then "that is how we acquired the lead," and then I have a panel that has a lot of marketing information in there. In there is not only "how we acquired the lead," but then "what is the most recent lead source and lead source detail? When did they become a marketing qualified lead? When did they become a sales accepted lead?"
What that enables us to do is to run reports to say, "The lead was acquired this way, the lead was acquired from a pay-per-lead campaign." On the other side, we see that they were acquired from a pay-per-lead campaign, say, in January. And then in September, we see that we met them at X event. So we have where they were acquired, and we know what brought them in.
But the thing that was triggering them was this other piece. And so what that enables us to do is to figure out, "Are we spending our money the right way?" Sometimes what people do is they'll pay attention to where things came in from, and they'll say, "Oh, this..." They'll pay attention to one or the other.
I worked in a company where the VP of finance and I had passionate conversations about this because he would say, "We don't get anything out of trade shows. They don't convert." Because he would see the sign-ups, they did these sign ups, but then when we went back and looked, we were like, "Oh well, 45% of the people who signed up came from shows." Well, then clearly those two have a correlation.
We also found, just to give you one more thing, is that that same company, it was 73% of people who signed up ended up going at least into trial, or I should say, 73% of people went into trial if they saw our content somewhere else. They read about us on, say, TechTarget or something, and then they came to our website and did that. They converted higher, so that was 73% who saw us somewhere else. If you just came to our website and signed up, it was 54%. So if you got to the website, but had never seen us anywhere else, you weren't as far along in the process.
I would agree, that is, if you're speaking at something that tends to be a little more difficult. It's on the onus of the person who's there, or the people qualifying, to figure out how it went back, but I wouldn't put dollars into something.
You always have limited dollars. If you have limited dollars, and you're only doing one thing, I would not put them into being at a booth. I would consider only speaking if it's supporting your other programs.
I came into Iron a little over a year ago. You can't do everything at once. We started with demand gen, you know. The sales team needed leads. In fact, we started with the sales team needing leads. They just need more leads, and so we started with that. Then it was qualifying the leads. Okay, then we're qualify the leads even more.
We started with that before we did anything that was brand related and anything that was really even PR related, much because you only have so much time. So I wouldn't put that at the top of your list.
But as you're creating programs, you will be able to measure it if you're creating campaigns and Salesforce is assigning anyone who's related to that to that campaign. That will then track the ROI of who's converted and how much money, and all those things. But I wouldn't put that at the top of your list.
One other thing, I did talk to somebody here last week who was trying to get adoption of a standard. And so for him, demand gen wasn't the priority. His priority was getting people to use it, and in that case, speaking was incredibly important.
I think everyone's run into those situations. I will tell you that in my experience, I would say that the drip campaign is definitely influencing that, even if they're not necessarily clicking on the call to action.
You could probably tie it in the call to action, but the reality is that the reminder, the telling people "You need to do this in your process."If you weren't doing that drip campaign, would it have been top of mind to do that? So that's how you have to think of it that way.
Sales and marketing should work toward common goal. The funny thing about Morgan asking that, is because he knows that I have passionate feelings about this. I get really annoyed with marketing people or the whole theory of marketing and sales are at odds.
The reality is that I should be looking at what the business goal is. My partner should be looking at what the business goal is. We should be working on that together. Having said all that, I did start off by saying, at one point, that when I have the SDRs doing the qualification, we're splitting the BANT because I also don't want to argue with sales. This is why we define what we need, what's needed for sales, and then that's what we're delivering.
I had a friend who was a demand generation person who said, "Marketing is sales' wingman. Marketing is not sales' bitch." What he meant by that is that marketing shouldn't running after doing whatever sales tells them to do.
The reality is I have a brain, and I need to be delivering the best, qualified lead that matches what's converting for sales. When I came into a previous company, the marketing team, all they did was create lists for the sales team.
The sales team would say, you know, the inside sales team would say, "We want to call health care. Put together a list of health care organizations." And there was no intelligence into it, as opposed to looking at what is actually selling, and to whom, and then creating campaigns that deliver those people who are likely buyers in that space, instead of "Just list of anyone who happens to fall into that category." So, it definitely is a working together.